Young Earth Advocates Argue
Against An Ancient Universe
— Using Purely Human Nonsense!

A "live" discussion with young earth advocates regarding the fact that the
universe is ancient. See specifically how they offer nothing more than their
merely human speculation. (A few blatantly misrepresent everything in sight!)

 Part 10 
Take your pick (click):
  • LURlist Archive 328, Message 2   (9/5/99)
    Robert Marden - remember, he's a preacher - does not take his responsiblity seriously. I point this out. (Robert is himself yet another example of why so many young earth advocates runs roughshod over truth-seeking. It was way back in my 6/23/99 post to Don Galaway where I said: "Though in the middle of the trees it may seem to be otherwise, the forest of my entire discussion is really about what I see as a wrong attitude." I am speaking the truth.)
  • LURlist Archive 328, Message 5   (9/5/99)
    Jerry McDonald - remember, he's a preacher - continues to try to take me to task for refusing to change the subject. I take him to task for refusing to give any reason whatsoever as to why I should change the subject and talk about biological evolution. What in the world does evolution have to do with the fact that the universe is ancient? Jerry never answers this question.
  • LURlist Archive 328, Message 6   (9/5/99)
    Ron Cosby - remember, he's a preacher - LURlist co-moderator, casts aspersions on my "decorum." Hmmm... I wonder why, through the few months of this discussion, he never ever mentioned the decorum of anyone else??? (Yes, my time in LURlist is growing short.)
  • LURlist Archive 328, Message 7   (9/5/99)
    Of course, other people are still asking me some honest questions. Harrell Davidson enters the discussion with a good one.
  • LURlist Archive 328, Message 8   (9/5/99)
    Roy Lonsinger - remember, he's a preacher - continues to advocate that human interpretation of the Bible is infallible, and thus considerations of empirical information are irrelevant. I continue to point out the fallacy inherent in this viewpoint - the very same epistemological consideration that I have been making almost since the very beginning of this entire discussion (despite Dr. Fox's misrepresentations to the contrary).
  • LURlist Archive 329, Message 1   (9/6/99)
    Here's Kyle Cowden, pretending to have the references I have been requesting from Robert Marden. Isn't it funny he never even cites a single one? I think the word for this attitude is "chutzpah"!
  • LURlist Archive 329, Message 2   (9/6/99)
    Ron Cosby asks me to consider his formal debate request — and nothing else. I request his "indulgence for me to 'wrap up gracefully.'"
  • LURlist Archive 329, Message 3   (9/6/99)
    Ron Cosby closes the "open discussion" on the topic.
  • LURlist Archive 339, Message 2   (9/18/99)
    Strictly speaking, all of my posts from here on are not about the subject of the ancient universe, but about "arranging for formal debate." But watch how the profuse misrepresentation of many young earth creationists is demonstrated even here.
  • LURlist Archive 339, Message 12   (9/18/99)
    Wow! Ron Cosby chooses to engage in misrepresentation even while just talking about what the debate topic should be! It is ridiculous how he tries to pretend that the alleged short-term comet mystery "neglects to focus attention on the issue of whether the universe is young or old." If this was true, then why in the world do young earth creationists use this as a criticism of the idea of an ancient universe? Ron totally ignores the fact that it was the preacher Darrell Broking (a young earth creationist on the LUR Staff) who brought up this subject in the first place. I simply showed that Darrell's claim was wrong, and absolutely no one who participated in the discussion in LURlist would acknowledge this.
  • LURlist Archive 340, Message 3   (9/19/99)
    Misrepresentation is a way of life for some. Think about what it is that people who believe like this (denying that geocentrism is wrong) must do in order to maintain these kinds of beliefs in their minds. It makes you want to sympathize with Alice (in Wonderland).
  • LURlist Archive 345, Message 1   (9/25/99)
    Now, wait a minute, Ron! You were the one who started debating about the debate proposition that you requested me to give. I hate hypocrisy! I am also getting tired of Ron simply using this "debate offer" as just another opportunity for misrepresentation, and I let him know this very clearly.
  • LURlist Archive 346, Message 1   (9/26/99)
    The final post, by Gil Yoder. Further misrepresentation. Three monkeys. Obstinately refusing to acknowledge simple truths. Gil (like Ron) directly contradicts two of his own LUR staff members! Gil and Ron need to get with Darrell Broking and Dr. Marion Fox and get their stories straight regarding whether or not the alleged comet mystery is relevant, because Darrell and Marion sure thought it was. (Aren't hyperlinks wonderful?!) Remember, three of these guys are preachers, and all four of them are members of the LUR staff. What a tangled web these young earth creationists have woven!
 [ TOC ]   [ PART 1 ]   [ PART 2 ]   [ PART 3 ]   [ PART 4 ]   [ PART 5 ] 
 [ PART 6 ]   [ PART 7 ]   [ PART 8 ]   [ PART 9 ]   [ PART 10 ]   [ HOME ] 



 Part 10 
From: 
Subject: 
Date: 
Archive URL: 
Message #: 
Todd S. Greene
Re: OEC - age of the earth
Sun, 5 Sep 1999 12:08:10 -0400
http://www.onelist.com/messages/LURlist?archive=328
2

###### Robert Marden, 9/4/99 ######
Todd: I'm not going to fuss with you.
###### Todd S. Greene ######
Translation: I don't have any references for my claim. I just believe it because it fits my preconception. In other words, I can't be bothered with the fact that I can't back up what I claim. My mind is already made up.
###### Robert Marden, 9/4/99 ######
Why don't you ask some of the others for references?
###### Todd S. Greene ######
I HAVE been, Robert, and - just like you - no one provides references. In other words, I am finding that few take their truth-seeking responsibilities seriously enough to actually follow through by "digging into the details" of that which they profess to believe. I shall make a note of the fact that you believe it is okay to teach false claims and that you don't think it is necessary to provide any evidence for the claims that you make even though you know quite clearly that you are disputing common empirical information.
As you are well aware of, Robert, estimates of the age of the earth (a geological question) have held quite steady at about 4-1/2 billion years for over thirty years.
You dispute this. Either provide your references and back up your claim, or retract your false claim that "scientists are not united as to the age of the earth." Alternatively, acknowledge that you believe it is okay to say erroneous things simply in order to "lay down a rhetorical base" upon which to build a misplaced faith (in the young earth creed). Be aware that your silence (refusal to provide any evidence whatsoever for your false claim) speaks to the latter.
Incidentally, I intend these remarks as "goads," not "jabs" (if that makes any difference).
Sincerely,
Todd S. Greene
P.S.: Of course, I'm also still waiting for acknowledgements regarding the wrong "Moon & Spencer conjecture" and the alleged "comet mystery." So you do have company!
###### Todd S. Greene, 9/4/99 ######
Hi, Robert.
Still waiting for those references. This claim of yours is wrong.
Sincerely,
Todd S. Greene
###### Robert Marden, 9/4/99 ######
[snip]
Anyone who knows anything at all about the history of science knows that scientists are not united as to the age of the earth.
[snip]
In Him,
Bob Marden
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 Part 10 
From: 
Subject: 
Date: 
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Todd S. Greene
Re: OEC - Macro-Evolution Not Relevant To OEC
Sun, 5 Sep 1999 12:20:00 -0400
http://www.onelist.com/messages/LURlist?archive=328
5

Yes, Jerry. And, additionally, we're never going to find out how the separate topic of macro-evolution (and consideration of it) is relevant to the facts that the universe and the earth are both quite ancient, which are astronomical and geological considerations. I didn't think you were going to try to explain this one either.
Sincerely,
Todd S. Greene
###### Jerry D. McDonald, 9/3/99 ######
So...in other words we are never going to find out whether or not you accept macro-evolution as being truth. Didn't think so. I think that portrays it exactly as you have stated it.
In Christ's Service,
Jerry D. McDonald
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 Part 10 
From: 
Subject: 
Date: 
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Message #: 
Todd S. Greene
Re: OEC - age of the earth
Sun, 5 Sep 1999 12:58:12 -0400
http://www.onelist.com/messages/LURlist?archive=328
6

Hi, Ron.
You wish to discuss "decorum" instead of "style of discussion." Good! I certainly do not deny that I intend to be, and strive to be, honestly forthright (forthrightly honest?) with my comments. I note, again, that you make personal reference to MY decorum, but you have intentionally ignored Dr. Fox's decorum. I say, again, where were you when Dr. Fox referred to me as uneducated, irrational, espousing atheistic arguments, and so on? Perhaps considerations of decorum are one-sided? I do not care if they are or not - it is certainly your prerogative. I am simply pointing it out. (Or perhaps you did discuss Dr. Fox's decorum with him privately, off the forum, whereas you have chosen to discuss my decorum on the list? I don't know.)
I freely acknowledge that, occasionally, I have met Dr. Fox's decorum with equivalent rhetoric. (Indeed, I would even point it out when I did it, stating that I did not agree with that kind of rhetoric but was "returning it to its owner" in an attempt to show to them the wrongness of their own rhetoric.) On other occasions, I have "bowed out" of getting into that kind of "rhetorical slugfest," as I did about three weeks ago with Dr. Fox, saying that I would respond to him when he chose to actually discuss the "Moon & Spencer" stuff instead of rhetorically "dancing around it."
In clear matter of fact, I don't care how Dr. Fox chooses to engage in discussion, stylewise or any other aspect. Like Jerry Brewer, I believe in "free reign" in "aggressive discussion" in order to try to make your points and back up your claims. Personally I don't believe in such things as "flame wars," while I DO believe in pointing out the styles, and rhetorical techniques, that people use, along with what they actually say (such as the technique of making odd claims with no intention of backing them up, such as the "Moon & Spencer conjecture" and the alleged "comet mystery"). I am to be faulted for this?
Additionally, why should Dr. Fox be "quiet and reserved"? Have I asked for this? I have not. I make claims, I give explanations and clarifications, I give references, I dispute criticisms that I believe are fallacious showing why I think they are fallacious, and so on. As Jerry Brewer said, why should it be different? This is the discussion of two clearly controverting points of view. If this subject is "familiar territory" to Dr. Fox (and it seems than he and many others believe it is), then why should he refrain from discussing it? (Noting, of course, unlike some others here, that I have absolutely no expectations with regard to time, knowing myself quite well that there is life outside of "cyberspace.")
Finally, as noted in previous weeks, I have tried to be careful to "prepend" all of my posts on this topic with "Old Earth Creationism" or "OEC" so that those not interested can delete or otherwise ignore them, besides the fact that all can see the author's name (though I note that over the weeks I have missed a couple on occasion).
But, please note, this discussion is not about me. This discussion is about the evidence of the old universe and old earth. I have made my claims. I have explained certain aspects in detail where relevant. I have provided numerous references for people to "check into things" further. I am quite comfortable with the fact that I have represented things in this discussion fairly and accurately.
Regards,
Todd S. Greene
###### Ron Cosby, 9/3/99 ######
[snip]
BTW, Marion and I have talked. His present quietness and reservations in the face of your continued personal references (no less than 12 in your last post) have nothing to do with lack of ability or knowledge. It has a great deal to do with decorum — yours.
Ron Cosby
 [ TOP ] 



 Part 10 
From: 
Subject: 
Date: 
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Message #: 
Todd S. Greene
Re: OEC - Evidence
Sun, 5 Sep 1999 13:20:33 -0400
http://www.onelist.com/messages/LURlist?archive=328
7

###### Harrell Davidson, 9/3/99 ######
To Todd S. Greene:
Been following the string for some time. Question: Do you believe there is more evidence of God in nature than in inspiration? Thank you for your answer.
Harrell Davidson
###### Todd, in response ######
Hi, Harrell.
I simply refer you to Dr. Davis A. Young ("Christianity and the Age of the Earth," in *Is God a Creationist?*, pp. 87, 88, 93), who said it better than I have:
    We are dealing with God's world and with God-created facts.... We must handle the data reverently and worshipfully, yet we should not be afraid fo where the facts may lead. God made those facts, and they fit into His comprehensive plan for the world. God has brought the world into its current state of existence, and thus the facts of geology and all other facts owe their existence to His sovereign counsel. When a geologist finds a rock composed of 30% quartz, 40% alkali feldspar, 20% plagioclase, and 10% biotite, the rock is that way because God willed it to be so, not because the geologist made it up or because of fate or ultimate chance. The fact about that rock's composition is every bit as much a fact as any fact that can be found in the Bible. It is as true as any fact in the Bible. It is just as much a fact as the fact that Christ died for our sins. To be sure, it is a much less important fact. One's life will not be significantly different for either being aware of it or not being aware of it, but it is nonetheless still just as much a fact. It is a very different kind of fact from the facts we find in the Bible. The facts of the Bible are expressed verbally; those in nature are not. The facts of the Bible primarily tell us what we are to believe concerning God and what duty He requires of us. The facts of the Bible are ethically normative for our lives; the facts of nature are not. The Bible generally tells us what we ought to do; nature generally does not. Thus in the Bible and in nature we are dealing with different kind of revelation of God, with different kinds of facts, but we are dealing in both cases with facts divine origination....
    ...if we want to know what God wants us to do we listen to His words in the Bible, but in the study of nature the redeemed Christian also learns to appreciate the character of God as Psalm 19 and Romans 1 make plain. Creation reveals God's character and expresses His nature, although not in the same direct way that the Bible does.
    The facts of the Bible and the facts of nature, therefore, do not disagree but form one comprehensive, unified expression of the character and will of our Creator and Redeemer. Nature and Scripture form a unity, for God is one. Although man, because of his sinful nature, reveals himself in inconsistent and contradictory ways, God *cannot* do so. But the fact that God's words and works are a perfect unity does not by any means indicate that we can always see how they agree or fit together....
    Nature is also from God, and nature would lead us to believe that the Earth is extremely old. Scientific investigation of the world God gave us is an exciting enterprise that God would have us engage in. We do not need the flight-from-reality science of [young earth] creationism. We need a more vigorous approach to both nature and Scripture. May I plead with my brethren in Christ who are involved in the young-Earth movement to abandon misleading the public. I urge them to study geology more thoroughly. Geology cannot be learned from a few elementary textbooks. There is far more to it than that. I also urge creationists to be less dogmatic about Scriptural texts over which there has been substantial diversity of interpretation within the historic Christian church. If they would be of service to Christ's kingdom, they should do some honest-to-goodness scientific thinking that takes facts seriously, facts that were created by the God they wish to defend and serve.
Regards,
Todd S. Greene
The heavens are telling the glory of God;
and the firmament proclaims his handiwork.
Day to day pours forth speech,
and night to night declares knowledge.
There is no speech, nor are there words;
their voice is not heard;
yet their voice goes out through all the earth,
and their words to the end of the world.  (Psalm 19.1-4a)
You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.  (Matthew 22.37)
 [ TOP ] 



 Part 10 
From: 
Subject: 
Date: 
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Todd S. Greene
Re: OEC - age of the earth
Sun, 5 Sep 1999 13:40:23 -0400
http://www.onelist.com/messages/LURlist?archive=328
8

Hi, Roy.
Please don't take this question the wrong way. I am making a very legitimate point with it:
So when you, Roy, read the Bible, you are directly inspired by God in such a way as to understand it 100% correctly, and there is absolutely no fallible human understanding involved? Right?
When you answer this question, you will understand why I totally disagree with the point you are trying to make and why I think you are misrepresenting the position I have advocated, such as (from an 8/23/99 post):
[Genesis] was not written from our modern technical, scientific perspective, it was not written in the language of our modern perspective, and it was not meant to be interpreted from our modern perspective. To make it try to teach what it does not intend to teach is to interpret it incorrectly. That is why I have brought up all of that discussion about phenomenological language, and why I brought up aspects of Hebrew words and English interpretation that others were perhaps not aware of. While there are definite features of the text, there are certain ambiguities involved for us some thousands of years later. We are of a culture and language that is foreign to that of the original author and the original audience. I'm sorry, but I can't change that, I didn't make it like that, that's just the way it is.
To say that as we learn more about these things, since we are limited human beings and don't start out omniscient (and never become so), we might actually have to modify how we previously interpreted it, is not a dangerous epistemology. It is the honest, humble truth. To claim otherwise, or to make claims based on assuming otherwise, is to set yourself up as pope, or god-like in your omniscience. This is why the exclusivist approach on this is simply not acceptable. It is not acceptable, because of the nature of reality, not because of some obscure or esoteric philosophical considerations.
To the Christian, God "made" the Bible. To the Christian, as well as to the skeptic, the world represents truth that can be examined and understood. Both the Bible and the world are "100% truth," to use Dr. Marion Fox's terminology. It is our human understanding that is fallible. To say that, somehow, our human understanding of the Bible is 100% true, while our human understanding of the world is tentative and theoretical, is simply not true. There are differing degrees of "sureness" in our human understanding. It just so happens that our degree of sureness with respect to heliocentrism became so high, based on the empirical information that was acquired due to the progress in scientific observation, that it destroyed the degree of sureness with respect to what the Bible was supposed to have "taught" with regard to geocentrism.
You say the Bible is not from man. Certainly you would agree with me that, equivalently, the world around us is not from man either. Those who try to dispute this epistemological point with me have simply failed to address this.
Sincerely,
Todd S. Greene
###### Roy Lonsinger, 9/3/99 ######
In a message dated 09/02/1999 10:47:21 PM MDT, Todd S. Greene writes:
Where are his citations, his references? The fact that he has none is a very significant fact. Why should I not point it out where relevant?
Roy Lonsinger here:
I've stayed out of this discussion to this point but I would have to object to Todd's point above. I've seen Dr. Fox and all the others involved in this discussion give the only citation and references that are considered ABSOLUTE Truth throughout their posts whenever they refer to Genesis and Exodus where the Creation is talked about and specified as to the length of time God took to create the heavens and the earth. Regardless of what science says or what any other man would say God is still the only one who is ABSOLUTE and His Word even clarified by Jesus in John 17:17 as being truth. These sources are not from man so maybe that's why Todd discounts them so readily. I believe Romans 1 speaks on this point when it says man worshipped the creature rather than the Creator, and again in 1 Corinthians when Paul speaking through Inspiration says that man's wisdom is foolishness compared to God.
In Christ,
Roy D. Lonsinger
 [ TOP ] 



 Part 10 
From: 
Subject: 
Date: 
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Todd S. Greene
Old Earth Creationism - Intellectual Honesty
Mon, 6 Sep 1999 09:58:27 -0400
http://www.onelist.com/messages/LURlist?archive=329
1

To all.
Bob Marden's false claim was one, not several, as Kyle implies. Bob's claim was that scientists were in disarray on the age of the earth. This claim is false. I note here, yet again, that Kyle provided absolutely no references for this false claim (because, frankly, he can't).
Why do they believe it is okay to use this kind of rhetorical technique to try to support the young earth creed?
I want all on LURlist forum who have been following this discussion to note this technique: Make a claim without having any references to back it up. Someone points out that the claim is either an unsubstantiated one (it needs references) or it is a discredited claim (and references are given showing why the claim is wrong). In the first case, those making the false, unsubstantiated claim simply continue to make it while ignoring the need to back it up. In the second case, they refuse to acknowledge that they ever made a mistake (that the claim is discredited) and either try to obfuscate it or are simply silent about it. This approach is demonstrative of a lack of responsibility when it comes to truth-seeking. It is irresponsible. It is wrong.
In this discussion, this has now occurred with the discredited "Moon & Spencer conjecture," the alleged "comet mystery," and this false claim of disarray among scientists regarding the age of the earth (among others that I could have discussed but simply didn't get into).
Isn't it interesting that whenever we happen to dig into the details of a particular item, the young earth approach comes up on the short end of the stick? As I have mentioned before, the same thing would happen were we to dig into other young earth claims, such as the ocean salinity argument, moon dust, the shrinking sun, and so on. Yes, there are only so many hours in the day, but after digging into the details of several claims and seeing that the various young earth arguments are simply, in a word, "bogus," you HAVE to downgrade the young earth approach in the area of credibility.
The old earth advocates are right on this one. If you are a genuine truth-seeker, you need to check into these things. Either that, or in all honesty, you must remain neutrally noncommittal, not knowing enough on which to base a proper decision.
Intellectual honesty. It's not for everyone.
Sincerely,
Todd S. Greene
###### Kyle S. Cowden, 9/5/99 ######
Robert,
    You are right. The age and the origin of the earth and universe is a point of major contention in the naturalistic camp. Examples include whether the background microwave radiation is a remnant of a Big Bang, and if so, why is it seemingly directional as opposed to being radiantly symmetrical. Is the sun fired by fusion or gravitational compression. Is the Doppler effect [concerning radiated light] the result of expansion, warped space, decay in light speed? All have dramatic effects on the postulates in question. The measuring methods used on distant stars and galaxies show drastically different results for the same object depending on the method and assumptions. Men with entire alphabets in their titles argue with one another advocating which ever conclusion fits their particular prejudice and agenda. If you were to cite the specific examples of such it would fill pages or in our case use incredible amounts of bandwidth.
If Todd has read as much as is apparent on the subject, than he is surely aware of these "problems" and should not need to be provided with case points.
In Him,
Kyle
Robert Marden wrote [9/4/99, archive 327, msg 9]:
Brothers,
    Am I mistaken when I say that scientists down through the ages, and even today do not agree on the age of the earth? Todd wants references, and I am not going to hunt them up, but I would like to know about this.
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 Part 10 
From: 
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Todd S. Greene
Old Earth Creationism
Mon, 6 Sep 1999 09:59:08 -0400
http://www.onelist.com/messages/LURlist?archive=329
2

Hi, Ron.
I did not expect or intend this discussion to go on indefinitely in this forum either. As I intimated in my 8/25/99 post addressed to Douglas Young,
I am approaching the end of this thread of discussion (which Gil Yoder has graciously allowed to progress, so that, in my opinion, various aspects of the "large territory" that the subject covers can be considered). I can see that I really have, I think, only a couple more relevant issues that I would like to get into more (such as the "apparent age" argument), then I will be done with it, and leave those who have encountered my discussion to deal with the information, concepts, and issues I have raised, as they see fit. (Though, of course, I will be available, as I have been, by personal email.)
My only plea along these lines is that people deal with the information, concepts, and issues in an honest manner, and not let themselves be confused and misled by the common distortions that I have directly seen many respondents make, while I am right here engaged in discussing the subject.
Hence, I was already beginning to head into "wrap up" mode when you posted your suggestion for a formal debate. I wanted to make a final response to Dr. Marion Fox's last "Moon & Spencer" post (which I have done), and I wanted to talk about the "apparent age" argument, but perhaps I shall not be discussing this latter topic. So I shall have to request your indulgence for me to "wrap up gracefully" with one or or two more posts in a few days time.
(After that time, if anyone wishes to discuss further aspects or hash out more details on issues already raised and still include me in the discussion, then they will want to email me privately rather than posting their comments/questions/criticisms in the LURlist forum.)
Regards,
Todd S. Greene
Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.  (2 Corinthians 3.17)
Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins.  (James 4.17)
The heart of the discerning acquires knowledge;
the ears of the wise seek it out.  (Proverbs 18.15)
###### Ron Cosby, 9/5/99 ######
Todd, speaking on behalf of the moderators of LURlist, the discussion with you and various ones on the list will not be allowed to continue indefinitely. Therefore, you have one question before you: Are you going to accept the challenge to debate the issue of the age of the earth in the new venue? After a week, you should know. No one knows the answer but you. What is your decision? What are your propositions and guidelines?
Ron Cosby
http://www.letusreason.com
http://www.oabs.org
###### Ron Cosby, 9/5/99 ######
To all members of LURlist,
On behalf of the moderators of LURlist, please cease communication with and about Todd Greene until he decides to accept or reject the public challenge to debate the issue that we all want discussed. Please be patient, and please understand that time is running out.
Thank you in advance for your cooperation
Ron Cosby
http://www.letusreason.com
http://www.oabs.org
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 Part 10 
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Ron Cosby
Debate
Mon, 6 Sep 1999 09:33:37 -0700
http://www.onelist.com/messages/LURlist?archive=329
3

Todd,
Your latest posts (9/6) implies *to me* that you do not want to debate the issue in a new venue. It also implies you desire to have the last word, since others have already been requested to cease all responses to you and about you. Todd, you have had, with the posts now before me (9/6), your last word on the subject. As of this moment, the discussion is finished.
Todd, you falsely asserted: "Isn't it interesting that whenever we happen to dig into the details of a particular item, the young earth approach comes up on the short end of the stick?" A formal debate will indicate what and who comes up short. Do you want to debate the issue? If you do, post your propositions and guidelines.
Ron Cosby
http://www.letusreason.com
http://www.oabs.org
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 Part 10 
From: 
Subject: 
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Todd S. Greene
OEC - Debate Proposition, Proposal
Sat, 18 Sep 1999 01:58:44 -0400
http://www.onelist.com/messages/LURlist?archive=339
2

Dear Ron Cosby:
After having thought about restricting the discussion to a specific proposition, with only two participants, according to some specific discussion rules yet to be determined, I have settled on a topic, or proposition, that I think would focus the discussion well.
Proposition: Those who accept an old universe have an explanation for the present existence of short-term comets.
I would affirm this proposition. I'm sure you can either send some debate guidelines to me to look at, or direct me to where I can find some. Then we can go from there.
Sincerely,
Todd S. Greene
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 Part 10 
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Todd S. Greene
Re: OEC - Debate Proposition, Proposal
Sat, 18 Sep 1999 20:04:51 -0400
http://www.onelist.com/messages/LURlist?archive=339
12

Dear Ron:
No way. That is far too broad. One of the very problems that people were complaining about the open discussion was that it was, in the words of Andy Boshers, too "scattershot." In correspondence with this, I plainly saw that people would tend to "skip over" specific items that they should have acknowledged, refusing to acknowledge them. The only way to have a productive discussion is to focus down on one item at a time and dig into the details of that item. That is the purpose of a debate proposition. Then, once the debate on that proposition is complete, we are certainly free to take up another item.
By the way, just as an FYI, my proposition does involve the concept of an ancient universe.
If, perhaps, it is just the particular item I proposed for the first proposition that is objectionable, then please feel free to suggest some others, and I will certainly consider them.
Thank you for your time.
Sincerely,
Todd S. Greene
###### Ron Cosby, 9/18/99 ######
Dear Todd Greene,
I do not know of anyone who wants to discuss the proposition that you have proposed since it neglects to focus attention on the issue of whether the universe is young or old. The problem is this: Suppose we do have an good explanation of the recent beginning of comets, that would not prove that the earth is young or old. It would only show that comets are young. Thus, the issue would still be an issue. The heart of the discussion ought to focus on whether the earth is young or old, don't you think?
On the other hand, if your proposition contains the concepts of the age of the universe, then a variety of proofs can be introduced that address the issue before us. Of course, I am supposing that you believe that the universe is extremely old (10 or so billions of years). If you do, why not let it be your proposition. For instance, something on the line of
Proposition: Science and the Bible prove the universe to be 10 billion years old. This wording is elementary to leave you room to word your own proposition; however, it does get to the point of the issue, don't you think?
Thanks
Ron Cosby
http://www.letusreason.com
http://www.oabs.org
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 Part 10 
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Todd S. Greene
Re: OEC - Debate Proposition, Proposal
Sun, 19 Sep 1999 14:26:38 -0400
http://www.onelist.com/messages/LURlist?archive=340
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Dear Ron:
I'm sorry, but I cannot change the nature of the general topic. The general topic is a broad one. It covers many areas. The fact is that in discussing it you have to cover a number of different items (as I was doing in open discussion). I am simply pointing out that having an extremely broad proposition does not lend itself to an effective debate.
By the way, please note the careful distinction I have made in the proposition I suggested. I tried to word it precisely. The proposition is NOT about "proving comets are young." It is about whether or not those who disagree with the young earth concept have any explanation for short-term comets. If they have no explanation for short-term comets, then this is indeed a good point for young earth advocates to make, and I would have to concede this (that those who accept an old universe have a definite problem with respect to short-term comets, which - if the young earth criticism is correct - should have vanished from the inner solar system billions of years ago in an old universe).
In fact, this proposition involves the young universe concept more than the the old universe, because "proving it" shows that this particular criticism (used by some young earth advocates against the idea of an old universe) is an incorrect criticism. As such, it "lends itself" to supporting the old universe idea only in the sense of showing that the criticism of it does not hold. It does not directly show an old universe (as does, for example, the SN1987a example).
But the proposition is, I think, a good one in that the meaning is clear and the idea is focused well, thus making it a good proposition for an effective discussion.
Please don't think I am "stonewalling" on this. I just don't want to waste my time on an ineffective discussion. Again, if you dislike this particular proposition, please feel free to suggest others. But I will remain with the idea that any proposition (which I will engage in formal debate on) must be well worded and well focused.
Thank you for your time.
Sincerely,
Todd S. Greene
###### Ron Cosby, 9/19/99 ######
Todd,
No doubt your "proposition does involve the concept of an ancient universe"; however, it does not involve the concept of a young universe, and that is the problem with the proposition. After your opponent proved your "particular item" was young, you would, in your own words, simply "take up another item." How would proving a comet is young demonstrate that the universe is young? The age of the universe is the issue.
I assure you, your opponent will address your arguments or forfeit. If Andy is willing, he can serve as moderator between you and your opponent.
Ron Cosby
http://www.letusreason.com
http://www.oabs.org
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 Part 10 
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Todd S. Greene
Re: OEC - Debate Proposition, Proposal
Sat, 25 Sep 1999 09:10:20 -0400
http://www.onelist.com/messages/LURlist?archive=345
1

Hi, Ron.
Let me say this as honestly and forthrightly as I know how.
Golly, we can't even discuss details regarding a debate? What chance is there of even having a reasonable debate, when you can't even discuss the details of setting it up? What is your approach to this?
You say that my "present course of action allows only one facet of the issue to be addressed." Precisely! That is the purpose of having a debate. That is the purpose of developing a good proposition for debate, to focus the discussion onto a particular topic, FOR THE VERY PURPOSE of making the debate EFFECTIVE, instead of "running all over the map."
I said very clearly that I was not in any way stuck on the particular proposition I proposed, and I would certainly consider others, but that they MUST be focused instead of broad, FOR THE VERY PURPOSE of making the debate effective, instead of "scattershot." If your goal is to have a scattershot debate, then we are in agreement that there will be no debate, at least as far as my involvement is concerned.
You make the statement "when you have a proposition that deals with the issue of whether the universe is YOUNG or old, let me know," implying that my proposed proposition had nothing to do with the topic. This is just further obfuscation. That proposition is indeed relevant to the topic - AS YOU WELL KNOW. If it was not relevant to the topic, then why do young earth advocates raise it as a criticism of the old universe/old earth idea? The only reason I brought it up at all, the only reason it is an issue at all, the only reason I offer it for a debate proposition, is BECAUSE YOUNG EARTH ADVOCATES HAVE MADE IT AN ISSUE. It is simply wrong for you to imply otherwise. If you don't have a young earth advocate who wants to debate that particular young earth argument, they please just honestly say so, instead of trying to pretend that it is not a relevant issue.
You state that "It is best that we not debate about the debate." So I guess I am to understand that it is okay for you to debate about it, and to mischaracterize it, but I should certainly not say anything about what you are doing. Good! I will debate Dr. Marion Fox, or others who may be interested, but I will not play these games where you ask me to propose propositions, then snipe at me for not proposing propositions you like and mischaracterize what I propose. If you want to put on that kind of show for the LURlist subscribers, please do it without me.
I want to have an honest debate. If you don't, then please don't try to involve me in it, or involve me in rhetorical discussions about a proposition being "not relevant" when you and I know perfectly well that it is.
Please.
So please let the record show that the person who advocates the idea of an old universe/old earth is ready to debate specific issues for the purpose of actually reaching a conclusion on something, whereas his potential debate opponent(s) is reluctant to have a debate that is purposely focused on a specific issue.
Thank you for your time.
Sincerely,
Todd S. Greene
###### Ron Cosby, 9/23/99 ######
Todd,
I say this as kindly as I know how. It is best that we not debate about the debate. Your present course of action allows only one facet of the issue to be addressed. Apparently, you fail to see that, if your opponent successfully negates your proposition, you could, and would, simply introduce another item. Thus, when you have a proposition that deals with the issue of whether the universe is YOUNG or old, let me know.
Thanks
Ron Cosby
http://www.letusreason.com
http://www.oabs.org
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 Part 10 
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Gil Yoder
Re: OEC - Debate Proposition, Proposal
Sun, 26 Sep 1999 15:18:42 -0500
http://www.onelist.com/messages/LURlist?archive=346
1

Todd Greene writes:
I want to have an honest debate. If you don't, then please don't try to involve me in it, or involve me in rhetorical discussions about a proposition being "not relevant" when you and I know perfectly well that it is.
Dear Todd,
Like most of your other posts to others I see you have decided to attack Ron personally, and to level false charges that have no basis in truth. I'm sure that Ron does NOT "know perfectly well" that your proposition is relevant, because it is not. It would be very easy to prove that the proposition is superfluous in as far as OEC is concerned. I doubt however that you would be swayed even by reasonable arguments, so I will not try.
It has become obvious that you are not interested in having a formal discussion of matters of interest to us at Let Us Reason, so we are cancelling our invitation to you to have such a discussion.
In our opinion you have been given more than adequate opportunity to present your views in our forum, and we have given you far more latitude for misbehavior than we have given anyone else. That leniency has been exhausted now though.
Sincerely,
Gil Yoder
LURlist moderator
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